Lawyer Says Sony's Pricing for Horizon Forbidden West is 'Deceptive' - News
by William D'Angelo , posted on 02 March 2022 / 8,653 Views
Hoeg Law Attorney Richard Hoeg in a recent YouTube video called out Sony's pricing for Horizon Forbidden West as "deceptive."
Sony is essentially charging two different prices for the same game. The PS5 version costs $70, while the PS4 version costs $60, which also includes a free upgrade to the PS5 version.
Sony originally said that dual entitlement to own both console versions of the game did not apply to the standard and Special Edition. However, following backlash Sony changed this and allowed PS4 owners of the game to be able to upgrade to the PS5 version for free.
All cross-generation first-party games after Horizon Forbidden West would have a $10 charge to upgrade from the PS4 to PS5 version. This includes Gran Turismo 7 and God of War: Ragnarok.
If you were to search for Horizon Forbidden West online on the US PlayStation Store, the $69.99 version of the game appears first, then lower on the same page you will see the $59.99 version.
Hoeg via Twitter did say, "Folks leapt on me for my Tweet on this a week ago, but there is no defending this kind of business model from the Sony PlayStation folks. They appear to be deliberately confusing the price point in an effort to "steal" $10 dollars from the uninformed. Duplicity and greed.
"For folks not following what's happening here, Sony is offering a PS4 version with 'free' PS5 Upgrade for $60 and a PS5 version with a PS4 copy included for $70. Same package. Two price points. With one displayed more prominently than the other.
"Hell, they didn't even update their FAQ (which is now a complete lie). Tell me how casual purchasers are supposed to navigate this? It's like they want to be sued.
"It gets worse. The PS4 version does not appear to be offered through the store on a PS5 at all, regardless of whether or not you ask only for PS4 games."
Folks leapt on me for my Tweet on this a week ago, but there is no defending this kind of business model from the Sony PlayStation folks. They appear to be deliberately confusing the price point in an effort to "steal" $10 dollars from the uninformed. Duplicity and greed. https://t.co/G7OoRzGf2U pic.twitter.com/oSurdmIJOy
— Richard Hoeg (@HoegLaw) February 14, 2022
"Things like 'deceptive' or 'unfair' practices are always a bit in the eye of the beholder, so while I can say that I personally feel that this kind of thing crosses the line and appears deceptive on its face, I cannot guarantee that a regulator like the FTC or a judge would feel the same way," Hoeg told VideoGamesChronicle in a recent statement.
"That said, as I mentioned in my video, you can definitely look at what has been presented and believe that material information (the ability to get a copy of Horizon for $60) is being deliberately withheld and/or obfuscated by Sony and the PS5 store presentation, and that if consumers knew they could play Horizon on PS5 for $60 many would make that election instead of paying $70."
He added, "I do think that this kind of thing could present a possibility of a class action claim. Many individual states (not to mention jurisdictions outside the US) have deceptive trade practices statutes that allow for civil actions, and it wouldn’t be surprising to see a request for plaintiffs coming from a class action firm on something like this, though it will depend on those firms’ analysis of what they think they can get out of a possible pay day.
"Even taking Horizon Zero Dawn's 20 million sold number and applying $10 to it (which isn’t realistic given the number of sales that will be made on PS4) has the lawyers fighting over ‘only’ $200 million for the class, so they will be looking to see if the bottom line number is enough to fight over."
Hoeg was asked how he would advise Sony to correct the situation and he said, "Practically, not legally, I would definitely advise Sony to change course on this. I suspect at least some of the issues here are arising because of their issues with transitioning licenses across generations, but the simplest thing would be to change the price of the PS5 version down to $60 to match the PS4 version.
"The second simplest thing would be to make sure that the PS4 version is available to purchase through a user’s PS5 and to make it abundantly clear that you get a PS5 version with the PS4 one. What they have instead elected to do seems to be the worst of both worlds, which would appear to be the case because they never planned to give a free upgrade to the PS4 version despite what they told the Washington Post before launching the PS5."
Horizon Forbidden West will launch for the PlayStation 5 and PlayStation 4 on February 18, 2022.
A life-long and avid gamer, William D'Angelo was first introduced to VGChartz in 2007. After years of supporting the site, he was brought on in 2010 as a junior analyst, working his way up to lead analyst in 2012. He has expanded his involvement in the gaming community by producing content on his own YouTube channel and Twitch channel dedicated to gaming Let's Plays and tutorials. You can contact the author at wdangelo@vgchartz.com or on Twitter @TrunksWD.
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This guy is absolutely right. This is all just stupidity on the part of Sony. I understand that they didn't intend to end up in this spot, but they got themselves here by not thinking through the pricing structure change. They simplified the pricing structure because the original scheme was too convoluted. But, they needed to just make the game $60 for everybody. Now they are stealing $10 from anybody that buys the $70 version. They obtained that $10 through misleading marketing, to put it mildly. I could make a case that it's outright fraud.
Completely agreed. They should be called out for this and stop fucking around with pricing. It's not like they won't do shitton with titles like Horizon on both systems anyways.
Sony was always greedy so this doesn't surprise me at all. I still love my ps5, couldn't call myself a gamer if I didn't have either a ps5 or ps4, but I am still an xbox guy at heart even tough I don't need an xbox.
The funny thing is that if it was 70 dollars I would buy it now, along with GT7 too. But its 95 dollars here in the UK, as that's the base price for Sony ps5 titles here, so you guys are lucky.
Deceptive is putting it kindly, shady or sleazy would define it better. But it was a lawyer's careful word choice.
Imagine actually defending this scummy move.
But i bet nintendo NEVER lowering there games is not a scummy move.
Why don't they charge a $10 upgrade for ps4 owners?
Such a bizarre and convoluted pricing structure.
I'd say the original structure was convoluted. The current one is just stupid. Like, really stupid.
Does the PS5 version also entitle you to the PS4 version? If not, not only is the PS4 purchase the cheaper way to go, but you're actually getting more for less money as you can get both versions, versus only the PS5 version with the more expensive option.
It does.
It does for digital only, PS5 physical copies only give access to that sku.
Wrong, insert any ps5 disc on a ps4 and you get...nothing.
This is the biggest area that Xbox 100% got right and Sony shot themselves in the foot. Many threw out Smart Delivery as marketing nonsense pre-launch and immediately after launch, but it's been anything but.
Not only did Xbox not raise the price of their games, but when there's a free next-gen upgrade for a game and the developer lists out the steps on how to do it, there are no steps for Xbox. They'll just say Smart Delivery will take care of the upgrade and your save data. When it comes to PS5, there's a laundry list of things that need to be done that usually doesn't include the additional steps needed to transfer your save file.
Next-gen pricing model and upgrades was the one thing Sony didn't fully think through. The hardware and games are there, but this is quite the thorn in their side. I guess either way, it won't matter in another year or two when all of Sony's first-party games will only be on PS5 anyway and this blows over.
Exactly, people forget about the extra dev work that goes into these features also, that takes more time and money. Maybe debatable if it is all worth a $10 upgrade, that is up to the consumer if they have both consoles. But certainly it is not the same thing as the competition feature wise.
The fact is while costs have increased the revenue streams have increased , looking at this from outside Ryan would have you believe that the $60 RRP is the only revenue they receive from a game , when the facts are they are earning more revenue and making the largest profits ever in the history of PlayStation.
Another smokescreen is the using the $100 million price tag when trying to justify pricing , when they are the outlier and those budgets numbers are usually tied to previous success and funded by those profits so most of that expenditure isn't tied to rising costs but was spent building on and further investing in a successful franchise.
Example the first 2 uncharted games were 20 million each but the next two games had double that budget that can seen as showing the increased costs of development overtime but doing so paints a wrong picture because the vast majority of that increased cost was enabled by the success of the first two games since obviously industry costs didn't suddenly double
But they already did the work and the ps4 version is still cheaper. They didn't gain.
And that's a completely fair point! Sony could have thoroughly explained these kinds of reasons as to why the price increase is justified instead of quietly adding the $10 charges like what they did with Horizon. None of this blowback would've happened. Or at least just very little because everyone would've realized the added features to a PS5 version is superior to a PS4 version.
Also, Flight Simulator is actually a next-gen only Xbox exclusive for $60, but this year and next is when Xbox is primarily going to start releasing next-gen only exclusives though. As far as I can see, Halo Infinite was the last first-party cross-gen game.
They did explain why the price increased, perhaps you missed it.
Ah, probably did. Here's another question though, why does Deathloop and Ghostwire Tokyo, next gen only PS5 games, still cost $60 when they have all the PS5 features that have been touted as a justification for the price increase?
Because they aren`t Sony first party so the price was decided by Bethesda,
I know, but it still cracks Sony's reasoning, which just makes it all the more annoying and deceptive on Sony's part. "Because it's not a Sony first party game" is not a good enough reason anymore since we're still seeing AAA games being released on PS5 for $60.
You ask Sony to justify it so all would be good, I say they did and them you move the goalpost?
I would like Sony to move the goalpost back to where it originally was. Because Sony's justification was apparently a lie.
Nope. You complained Sony didn't clarify, I said you did and you accepted, then complained about titles that weren't 70 USD, and I replied why, then you moved the goalpost again. You'll move as much as you want to not acknowledge that your post was wrong.
...........dude, you didn't even provide what the justification Sony had for the price increase. I just took your word for it. Only information I can find was Jim Ryan considered $70 to be "fair and justified" based on how many hours players can spend with a game, which is BS as that varies from game to game.
This entire issue came up as others on here claimed that the PS5 features like DualSense and 3D audio was the justification for the $10 increase. Don't you dare start mixing words around about what the issue is dude lol. Sony screwed the pooch on this matter. It's as simple as that.
If the reason for the $10 increase was because of the increase cost of the games Sony makes, I would accept that. Because games are indeed becoming more expensive.
lets hope that is not the reason
Wrong, its because Sony is greedy and bethesda wasn't as greedy.
I wouldn't say Bethesda isn't greedy. But Bethesda rightfully decided that doing that would look bad and tarnish their image.
I said not as greedy, I didnt say they werent greedy, every single developer and company is greedy, the sole purpose is to make money. My point still stands, bethesda didn't need to do a ps5 update at all, skyrim was already old and was already updated for the ps4 pro, no one was expecting them to updated let alone for free, so their image was never on the line if they did nothing.
Compare that to Rockstar, gta5 was never updated for the ps4 pro, its still in 1080p full of aliasing, and they will charge premium for the ps5 version, just wait for it, I predict minimum 50 dollars.
Doesn't matter in this case. If PS4 version gets a feee upgrade, why try to screw over PS5 users for buying the SAME UPGRADE for 10 dollars more?
They didn't quietly introduce the 10 dollar premium (20 dollar premium in the UK) it was there from day 1 over a year ago.
The UK price increase wasn't what you think. RRP for new games, not even just Sony, was £60 in the UK before this gen but high street stores and online never listed them at that because they competed with each other for the best price. At the start of this gen though for some reason these retailers didn't reduce the RRP like usual, So what was once £50 because stores reduced the price was suddenly £70 because Sony increased the price. Sony only increased their price by £10 (still a lot, £5 would have done) but UK stores were to blame for the deceptive price increase of £20.
You are probably not living in the UK because I have never seen a game over 50pounds before this generation. £49 was the standard price, with most shops selling between £42 and £45. New Sony games are £70, that's £21 pounds difference, or 28 dollars increase.
With that said, at the start of ps4 generation, the retail game price was £44, an increase from £40 on ps3, so basically when the previous generation started, games cost at retail 60 dollars in the UK.
So, from the start of the previous generation to the start of this generation, ps4 to ps5 games cost at retail, a difference of 35 dollars. That's more than 50% increase in the price.
I'm british. Check normal PSN and XBL prices for PS4/XBO games right now, Assassin's Creed Valhalla and CoD Vanguard is £60 on both. So did that Ubisoft and Activision increase their prices by £10 too for last gen? No because RRP is £60 but again UK stores don't do that so price from them is always lower because of competition. XBL, PSN and Nintendo stores don't compete with UK stores because they are EU shops. It was a deceptive price increase you are describing. I don't agree with Sony increasing their price but retailers are to blame for the price increase you are describing.
I'm not talking psn or xbox online stores, I'm talking retail stores from high street or amazon, when in doubt check on google, my prices are actually checked on google the official prices.
Valhala is actually like 25 or less on amazon, has been for months, launched, also the £44 price was last gen when it started. last gen currently normal prices are 49 and current gen is around 55-60 pounds. So even tough current gen is way more expensive, sony ganes are even more so at 70 pounds.
I know, PSN and XBL stores have RRP listed, I used them as examples of what the RRP is, they list it as those because they don't compete with UK retailers. RRP of games last gen was £50-60 up to the published to set, UK retailers then lowered this cost because that is what they always do (or did). This is why you say prices new from £40-50 because retailers liked the idea of saying "20% off".
Valhalla and Vanguard are last gen. They are £60 RRP but they are also 6 months old or no UK retailer is going to list them for that. XBL and PSN don't do that so their prices are the full RRP.
Current gen isn't any more expensive really Sony PS5 games it's just the jump seemed massive because retailers weren't listing their prices as below RRP like they usually do.
Wrong again, PSN and XBL stores have digital pricing which was always more expensive.
Again, check on google the retail price of games for the ps4 in 2014, I already did. Check my comment again.
I am not sure why you are defending UK paying 25 dollars more than the USA for the same game, same console. Maybe you are trying to justify to yourself the price, but I cant, I will just wait until its at a fair price.
Again, my prices are not for any particular game, its the official retail price for ps4 games, when it was announced. I never mentioned any discounts or anything, and I said the start of the generation, as in 2014 which was £44 pounds.
I was referring to the 10 dollar premium for Horizon Forbidden West . The original marketing for the game when it was first announced was Sony saying that there was always going to be a free upgrade to the PS5 version of the game as well as all Sony's first party cross-gen games, only to later on add that $10 upgrade fee and that's when this fire started.
Your argument falls apart completely when you look at the PC. Dozens of different graphics architectures and CPU architectures, controller support for every major controller (including the dual sense and it’s accompanying feature set in modern games), and yet developers don’t force a $10 up charge every time Nvidia releases a new architecture.
The new Xboxes have extensive architectural differences compared to the previous generation, just like the PlayStation 5, and many developers have already come out and said that implanting dual sense controller features requires almost no effort on their part.
This is tired excuse making for an inarguably anti consumer business practice. Sony’s $10 up charge for PS5 games is completely indefensible.
All those features are on top of any hardware architecture differences and updates though, that is the point! Name one dev that said it took almost no time to implement all of the haptic feedback, 3d spatial audio, and adaptive triggers to a game that PS5 games have...
Idk what developers made that statement about the dualsense implementation, but the main point was that it takes a lot more work to make a game on PC due to the literally thousands of different hardware combinations and architectures as well as hardware exclusive features such as RTX and DLSS with an Nvidia graphics card, than it does for console and that's without any features such as what the PS5 offers and still games are sold at a lower cost. Plus the game has to be scalable to be run on the beefiest of beefy PC rigs to the absolute potatoes. Whereas PS5 and Xbox architecture is static and doesn't change for years.
Just as an example, the God of War port on PC took at least over 2 years to make, and that timeframe was just from a single developer who happened to mention how long he was playing it on mouse and keyboard. So we don't even know how long development actually took. That's just how long it was in a playable state. That was for a 2018 game where there was no DualSense controller features or 3D audio, but DualSense still works with the game
Here’s anything conundrum. Why does Deathloop and Ghostwire Tokyo, next gen only PS5 games, still cost $60 when they have all the PS5 features you touted as a justification for the price increase?
Very true many games are still priced the same, it is a choice and may be subsidized in other ways, but development costs due to added features and dev time are objectively increasing, and it is not just noted by Sony. The added features to implement are just on top of all the things that went into game making in general.
-COD Black ops was $70 on next gen consoles. And many others have been from other companies.
Also, see what Take-Two's CEO said about the industry needing to move to an increase, and historical price increases in general. People act like this is a Sony thing but it is a basic industry need and always has been.
Not trying to defend Sony's messaging on this particular game though, it was a mess that they created themselves.
Development costs I totally get, you know? Games and the teams making them are getting bigger. To that extent, I understand from Sony's point of view, which makes me wish they didn't screw up the messaging about all this lol.
What then makes it a problem for me is that games like COD and Take-Two's games are priced at $70 for next gen versions, and yet they're FILLED with microtransactions! NBA 2K games aren't exactly the most demanding games that barely change every year, so why charge $70 then fill it with things to nickel and dime players as much as possible? That's when the whole thing breaks down for me and comes off as just a way to get more money. Not even the PC versions of these games are $70. They're $60 still. The only $70 game I see on PC right now is Final Fantasy VII Remake Integrade and it has to be one of, if not the, worst PC port I've ever seen. Complete cash grab. I think Square is also having Forspoken be $70, so we'll see how that PC version is.
Development cost increases yes but games are selling better than ever, each game makes more and more profit because there's way more gamers now than 20 years ago, so in the end they get more money for the extra work anyway. Also more people paying for stuff online and extras.
Oh and architecture on consoles is easier to develop for this time around, remember the ps3 when it was hard to code for?
You claim the incresed development costs, as if it isn't set off with other things. But game devs have much higher revenue as well, because for one the original price tag is never the real price thanks to Ultimate Editions, Season Passes, Battle Passes and Microtransactions. Secondly - and even more importantly - games sell even more than before. Dev costs are shared between all the customers, so best-selling games should be cheaper according to the logic. HZD sold 20M, seems it's sequel could be cheaper as games with lower sales.
The truth is Sony are moaning about the cost of their first party games but they are the ones who set the budget and theses games are sure fire hits and they keep bringing up 100 million plus when it is well known that that's the top end of the market an example uncharted 1 and 2 cost 20 million a piece 3 and 4 cost 40 million but that was them investing part of those profits back into the franchise to grow it and didn't mean that costs had suddenly doubled.
Ryan thought they could use this gen to increase prices and every one would follow suit , Jim Ryan is by far the worst PlayStation CEO we have had. costs have risen but so to have revenue streams and consumption and I would argue that the revenue and consumption has risen faster than game costs , but an outsider listening to them would believe that the $60 price is the only revenue they get from any game .
Well, then remasters should be free, because those features such as resolution, faster loadings, textures and performance are free on PC.
We wouldn't be having this conversation if Sony didn't include the PS5 version with the PS4 version though. The cheaper version is quite clearly superior here, because it's cheaper and also includes the PS5 version. Why are there two price points for the same game even if you want to play it on PS5? What Sony has done here is convoluted at best (and also great for PS4 owners).
Honestly, Sony shouldn't even include those amazing features for free. Sell that as DLC.
They are features that come with the console, something people have already paid a premium price for. Also not all games charge for these extras. So there is no reason why Sony should either. Its nothing more than a consumer tax to use features you already own.
The software for the 3d audio and other ps5 features were already coded, just because ps4 cant run it doesn't mean it should be more expensive. Better graphics and performance are due to the hardware, not software, that's like saying that when they introduced vibration, they should have charged more for those versions, makes no sense, those features are what pushes the consumer to buy new consoles and move the gaming industry forward.
If it was a game not on ps4, with those extra features then I would understand the extra price better, but ps4 is way cheaper, it just cant run some features due to hardware.
This article was the first I’d heard of it and I’m rather hacked off. Had I known, I’d have bought the PS4 version and saved myself the £10.
This is just a scumy move from Sony.
If xbox and pc can do it for free then why cant Sony. Its simple, they want to take as much money from consumers. If developers make a good game then then it will sell well. Nintendo is a classic example of what happens when u make a good game
Sleazy. And yet people will downplay it.
Remember, the free upgrade only exists because people called Sony out on their bullshit. If only they voted with their wallets on these $70 games.
No suprisre that this has resurfaced. Im not a lawyer but i saw this a mile away. I brought this up many times yet so many defended it. Its an unnecessary business practice.
What actually pisses me off is that they raised the price of all of their new first party PS4 games to 70€ and the PS5 games are 80€, while in the US PS4 games still cost $60 like they used to.
I thought the value of the PS5 was already included in its price.
if sony follows this site, the price will be adjusted!
People defending the 70 dollars price are forgetting this is an enhanced ps4 game at heart, it was not built to take full advantage of the new hardware, so why should we pay premium? I paid a lot of money for my ps5 so I could get NEXT GEN games, but this is not next gen if it can run on a ps4 which was already out of date 8 years ago.
Even a game built for the ps5 such as ratchet I cant defend the 70 dollar price because that game is like 6 or 7 hours long. That's like 10 dollars per hour.
Games that deserve this price are demon souls, returnal.
Even worse is GT7, not only is a last gen game, but you also need internet to play it in single player. GT4 launched at 50 dollars and needed no internet at all.
Just invest in a smart delivery equivalent and then you only need one version.
I had to read it 5 times to get "it" and I still think that this is confusing, it seems like you do get the digital upgrade to the PS5 version when you purchase the PS4 version.
I get why they are deceptive, their pricing structure makes no sense and honestly it discourages me to buy PS5 games (I do have a PS5)... I'll wait for a serious discount, even if the game looks great and the kids keep nagging me for it.
Its even worse in the UK, they are charging here 95 dollars for the ps5 version and 75 dollars for the ps4 version.
The irony is that the ps4 version is better because it works both on ps4 and ps5, but the ps5 version only works on ps5, just in case you want to lend the game to friends, its an inconvenience.
This is why I still prefer my PC for gaming. If I was not working abroad I would just sell my ps5 and be done with consoles. This is why I wont get this game until I see it second hand at good price, I did that for ratchet and demon souls and final fantasy 7 and returnal etc, never paid more than 35 dollars for any ps5 game.
PC games are never more than 50 dollars here, huge difference.
I dont mind horizon as thats a game I can wait as I just recently played the previous one for the third time, but I wanted GT7, but not at 95 dollars sorry.
The average customer will never know they paid $10 extra, a few extra millions of revenue is worth a little backlash.
The average customer spoke with their wallets during the Xbox One's lifetime as a result of backlash from bad optics. Sony needs to stop this, or the backlash will catch up with them too.
Yeah I felt robbed off my 10 bucks haha, I had no choice buying the 70 coz I'm team digital!
If Sony can do compensation then it's water under the bridge if not that lawsuit is gonna tarnish Sony's playstation reputation!
Although I think the 70 bucks is fair coz Sony is putting a ton of effort making amazing 1st party games which is absolutely worth it,
We need to support devs on making the best possible games ever not paying gamepass and let devs rot and release uncompleted games and make it a new standard I'm looking at halo.
I'd still get the ps5 version. It has the ultra blu ray disc. Where as the ps4 version comes with 2 standard blu ray discs.
yet. the worst culprit is nintendo, no cross generation offers, but wii u game, then buy the same game on switch for full price again, same again for a wii game remastered for switch, pay full price again
The Switch has a completely different architecture and cartridges instead of discs, there is literally no way for it to be backwards compatible to the Wii U. The PS4 is also not backwards compatible, this is not something new or heinous.
And as for Wii games, literally every developer ever has always made remasters and remakes of older games. Bandai Namco has brought twice as many Wii games to the Switch as Nintendo has with way lower effort.
Actually... Mario Kart was cheaper on Switch, as it included all the DLC from the WiiU version. Same with New Super Mario Bros U Deluxe, which included Super Luigi U. The game most comparable to Horizon was Breath of the Wild, which did cost the same on WiiU and Switch, in difference to what Sony does.
I get you, but this is not really the point here.
This has to be willful ignorance at its finest. The PS4 version being able to get a free upgrade day and date is basically spitting in the face of people who already have a PS5 and want the game digitally. How in the hell is Sony being the "good guy" for charging PS5 owners 10 dollars more, just to sell the PS4 version WITH THE SAME UPGRADES for less? It is a cheap tactic to hope people don't realize the free upgrade exists, and still charge and promote the 70 dollar version.
To keep with their initial promise for a free upgrade at reveal (which is why the backlash later on when they tried to back down happened in the first place), they should have just sold it for 60 across the board and took the hit. Hell even 70 across the board wouldn't look as bad. It just makes Sony look sloppy with their management to go about it this way.
